Why the “Ode to the Nice Guys” Is Complete Crap

by Matt Savage

For all those “Nice Guys” out there, you may want to check out the book: No More Mr. Nice Guy!

There is a meme circulating throughout the blogosphere that I first read about on Dating Dames regarding the article, Ode to the Nice Guys, written by a Wharton School undergraduate. Basically, the ode is a rant in which it praises the behavior of what is termed the “Nice Guy.” Before I go off on a giant rant of my own, lets first establish some distinction between Nice Guys and nice guys. Huh?

“Nice Guys” vs. nice guys

First, most men in the general population are nice in some aspect or another, most of who are either married or in perfectly good relationships. These men also are great guys with a strong self-esteem and a clear personal identity. This is not the “Nice Guy” that the ode is talking about and is not the type of guy we will discuss here.

For the purposes of this post we will use the term, Nice Guy, as it has become known in it’s derogatory sense. Defining this Nice Guy is tricky and I think one of the best explanations I’ve found is in this Kugelmass post, The History of Nice Guys. Also, there is a nice little example in this feminist blog post and in this poor sap’s long bitter resentment towards women post. Finally, check out this post by Eric at the Approach Anxiety blog and this frustrated woman’s CraigsList post on Why Nice Guys Suck. Hopefully these writings will give you a sense of what we are talking about in terms of Nice Guys.

In the most basic of definitions, I think that a Nice Guy is a man who lacks a certain amount of self esteem and is constantly seeking the approval of women in order to validate himself. Certainly not a social behavior that should be encouraged.

“Nice Guys” vs. Jerks

We often see this argument that most women want Jerks and not Nice Guys, hence, the age old debate of Nice Guys vs. Jerks. This is misleading and often perpetuated by the Nice Guys themselves. They’ll have you believe that since they are not the ones getting the women and because they label themselves as “Nice” then all those other guys getting women must be the opposite, Jerks. Of course, we all know that this is ridiculous. There are plenty of good guys out there who are neither jerks nor spineless Nice Guys. There are some guys who are just, well, Good Guys!

Please Do Not Feed The “Nice Guys”

Finally, to all those bloggers out there, passing along the “Ode to the Nice Guys”, please for the love of humanity STOP! This type of behavior should not be encouraged. These guys need to learn how to grow a spine and live life for themselves, not aimlessly rambling along trying to please every woman that crosses their path. Seriously, they are having a hard enough time getting women as it is, they do not need people filling their heads with nonsense.

A man should not be “Nice.” He should have goals, passion, convictions, identity and a sense of self. Sometimes a man needs to put himself first. I think Eric says it best here:

“…there’s a difference between being kind and being a disgusting wussy.”

{ 40 comments }

Suze August 1, 2007 at 6:27 am

I believe you can achieve the perfect blend of both and I happen to have found that man.

Past experience tells me that all guys initially play at being the nice guy when you start to go out and then change during the relationship.

It’s all about striking the perfect balance, I like a man to be considerate, caring and kind but also strong, protective and slightly dominant.

Matt Savage August 1, 2007 at 1:18 pm

Suze,

Yes, it is definitely good for guys to have a balance, being both kind and caring but still having the strong, protective, dominate side as you say. I think what you’ve got there is a “Good Guy.”

Although, according to this post it seems like you’ve got more of an animal;)

-Matt

Ms. Annie D August 6, 2007 at 10:00 pm

Matt, from what I can tell, you seem like a nice guy – small “n,” small “g,” that is.

And I mean that in the best possible way.

If I had a (much) younger single sister, I’d probably even send her your way ;-)

Hope you visit me again, and leave more intelligent comments.

xx
Annie

Matt Savage August 7, 2007 at 12:44 am

Annie,
Thanks for the nice compliments and I’m glad you stopped by. I’ll definitely be visiting you again, you have some great content.

Matt

Speak Sexy September 5, 2007 at 1:02 pm

I completely agree. I hate Nice Guys!! I also hate Jerks. A lot of it has to do with respect. It’s great when a man is able to “hold his own” against me without feeling the need to become disrespectful. I want him to challenge me – not be a doormat who agrees with everything I say or want.

But then again, arguing turns me on, so maybe I’m a little biased about this. =P

Scot McKay October 3, 2007 at 1:29 pm

I couldn’t agree more with this post, and have written on this exact topic myself.

The middle ground is a “Great Man” who doesn’t kiss up and give his power away OR act like a neanderthal I/J (Idiot/Jerk).

As long as men believe they need to be one or the other, there will be plenty of success for the small percentage of guys who “get it”.

BTW, particularly unsettling is when a “nice guy” or a “jerk” figures out what he is doing isn’t working and lets the pendulum swing in the COMPLETE opposite direction. Pathetic.

usernameis December 30, 2007 at 10:39 pm

This is so sad to read here all of you talking like this.You are unable to see the difference between right and wrong or good(nice) and bad on this thing you’re talking about…
All of you are abusing the humanity by talking like this because being nice is part of the humanity not part of a paticular gender.Any person girl,boy, man, woman and kids spous to be nice,nice is the highest quality and power for anybody….

Ian Smith March 19, 2008 at 10:49 pm

Unfortunately, society has had some sort of weird impact on the male population, well the females too, but thats not my focus right now.

I think it comes down to this. A “nice-guy” is a weak-minded man, someone who gives into the wills of others, constantly trying to gain approval by pleasing others peoples’ wishes.

But a “nice-guy” in my opinion is no better off than the asshole who uses women, both are finding approval through pleasing women. Even worse off are the hybrids that come from this weak-minded phenomena among men. The rich nice-guys who shell out money and disguise themselves as being surrounded by women, but deep down are still those pushover nice guys.

In the end, it comes down to inner strength. Are you living life for you, by your rules? Or are you living life to get the approval of the girl, and your friends?

Namaste.
Ian Smith.

Lindsey April 6, 2008 at 9:35 pm

I think everyone has completely missed the real problem at hand: that is not an ode. While vague, odes have some semblance of a structure, a structure that should not be disregarded or disrespected. I should write an ode about it.. ha!

David February 11, 2009 at 1:44 pm

First of all, it’s not just women that we are trying to please. So get off your high horse and listen to the truth. Yes, the Nice Guy syndrome usually stems from an over protective, overberring Mother. So for all you future Mothers out there, watch out how you raise your little princes. To get back to my first point, Nice Guys try to please everyone (Mother, Father, Friends, Coworkers, Boss, Total Strangers and everyone with a pulse even animals). I read this thing that alot of women hate Gentlemen. There have been women out there that have been convicted as being less than ladylike. I still believe in arranged marrages. I think that Mother and Father know best. They always have their children’s best interrest. Unfortunately, we can’t even figure ourselves out.

Matt Savage February 11, 2009 at 3:43 pm

@ David,
Haha, ok stepping off my “high horse” now…

First, I’m not sure I agree with your theory that most “Nice Guys” stem from an overbearing mother. I was the stereotypical nice guy for most of my life, yet I was raised with a good amount of freedom and self expression. On the other hand, a good friend of mine who had an extremely protective mother growing up, turned out to be a complete renegade. These are just two personal examples but I’ve seen evidence of similar situations in the broader spectrum.

In opinion your theory is possibly backwards. The kids who are overprotected would have more tendencies to create a backlash in their family ideals during adult hood. Where as the kids who didn’t receive a lot of attention from their parents growing up will turn to approval seeking behavior.

I do agree with you that the stereotypical nice guy tries to please everyone not just females. This is just part of the overall neediness and approval seeking attitude.

I can’t say that I would want an arranged marriage, personally I’d like to have the ability to choose the person I’m going to live with for the rest of my life. Though I do have an Indian friend who is about to be arranged for marriage and he seems pretty happy about it, so if that’s your cup of tea, then I have no qualms about it.

As far as mother and father knowing best and having your interests at heart, well, I think that’s not always the case. Unfortunately there are some bad parents out there. In my case you can read this post:
Lack of Male Role Models

Bob March 16, 2009 at 1:19 am

I respectfully disagree with you on this article. When my friend showed the ode I read it and though to myself…holy crap that’s me. Now before you go judging me know this…I come from a great family, religious, genuine, and well rounded. I was a 4 year varsity soccer player in high school and am now a full time college student and hold down a job to pay for all my expenses. I don’t claim to have everything together but I feel that I do a decent job and understand certain issues such as this one.

The ode is not saying that nice guys are losers but merely that we respect and understand girls. We have those girls that are great friends and we watch themselves get hurt by the “jerks” over and over and can’t understand why they do this to themselves. We know how a girl should be treated and want to do that for them but like the ode says near the end…we have to wait to find that smart girl who knows that being with the nice guy is the smart move…and I paraphrase loosely.

I don’t mean to step on anyone’s toes but just wish to give my input and here what others have to say. We live in a very complicated and sophisticated world and the only way to learn more is to ask questions and listen. So please don’t right off the ode but rather give guys like me some respect when we associate with it. The ode might not mean something to you but it means something to me.

Thanks :)

Drew May 4, 2009 at 6:13 pm

I’ve identified with the Ode quite a bit based on what my personality and how I’ve noticed things have gone since early highschool. Call me co-dependent, but one of my quirks is that I find myself happiest when I can make someone else happy, not trying to ‘please’ or seek approval, I just usually feel best when I’m doing what I can to make someone else’s day go smoother, or when they’re feeling bad, do something small to make it a bit brighter of a day. It’s not being spineless or allowing myself to be walked on…I just usually find myself laid back enough and able to roll with someone else’s plans because a lot of times I don’t have a preference of my own as long as the end result is the same.

The reason I identify with the Ode is mainly because I’ve watched female friends get hurt time and time again and then when I finally step in and play the “Nice Guy” roll, everything turns out fine for a little bit, then the women (without exception so far.) always seem to manage to find someone who treats them like crap again. And I don’t mean ‘crap’ in the sense of they don’t treat them like princesses, I’m talking about their boyfriends dominating who, when, where and what she does and see’s. That’s the definition of the ‘Jerks’ I deal with, and frankly, I’m proud that I’m not that kind of guy. I might not get the girl every time but at least I’m not the kind of guy I used to beat up in highschool.

JRSun76 April 27, 2010 at 6:25 am

The nice guy is just the inverted jerk, and usually a bit self-righteous. There is no virtue in being a “nice guy”. Women dont even consider nice guys an option as a mate, they look at them more as a male-child or little brother. Its very sweet of you to be concerned about these girls getting screwed by jerks, but try being more concerned with your own romantic life as a man. Otherwise keep trying to do what you are doing and tell us how well it works.

You want to know a secret? If you grow a backbone, the jerks will start to look like the the insecure little boys that they are in your shadow. Do the work, grow some balls, and realize that you have a lot to offer these girls.

Kate May 18, 2010 at 4:05 pm

I love “Ode to the Nice Guys.” I hate to say it, but I have been one of the girls in that ode. I have been the one to sit and complain to my friend that is such a nice guy while never considering him. It’s all true. It’s all true because I’ve been there. I’ve been the stereotype. But I’m able to confidently say that I am now pursuing that nice guy. And I couldn’t be more excited. So ladies, quit your bitching and take a good, hard look in the mirror. You know you’ve been there too.
I understand why you want to dispute it. No enjoys being called out, but sometimes we really need a good hard smack back to reality.

JRSun76 May 18, 2010 at 11:09 pm

Nice guys often start getting more attention from women who are fed up with jerks. This usually happens to women in their late 20′s and early thirties. The long term and stable partner and their features become more appealing. Its a backlash to getting screwed over so many times. However, if the nice guy has not done the work of learning to validate himself, the relationship will likely fail or be miserable for both parties. A lot of nice guys get married and have kids, a lot of these guys are also depressed because they are dependent on their wives validation and a needy person in a relationship, whether a boyfriend or a husband is fundamentally unappealing as a mate.

Kate, hopefully the guy that you are now interested has done this kind of work for himself. It is possible for a guy like this to do a 180 and take charge. I am an example of a recovering “nice guy”, so I know its possible, but its been some heavy work. Its good that you are seeking balance in your preferences, but make sure you know what you are getting into if the guy has not done the inner work.

Stoner with a Boner June 5, 2010 at 2:36 pm

Seeing the world as nice guys/jerks is an extreme black and white….

Also you could use terms more like “passive” and “aggressive”

The passive guy is mild mannered, doesn’t step on people and respects people’s boundaries.

The aggressive guy is loud, rude, gets in people’s faces and shows little concern for others.

There is a MUCH better path. That is Assertive. The assertive man stands up for his rights as well as his friends… If your out at a bar and someone makes a racist comment, the nice guy might stay silent, the jerk might join in.
the assertive guy will say, “That was fucked up!”

The assertive guy is neither a bully nor a pushover.

Really, at the end of the day it is about a personal code of honor that doesn’t have to do with getting laid…

It’s about a certain level of integrity and a quality woman will respect that on some level… (Notice I said woman, there are allot of drunk girls goin’ on their forties out there.)

Joey Giraud June 13, 2010 at 12:45 pm

It’s very simple. Men and women both have hard-wired, instinctual reproductive strategies that compel them to varying degrees. Women’s instincts are to reproduce with men who are strong, aggressive and promiscuous. Men’s instincts are to reproduce with as many women as possible, the most fertile first, then the rest if possible.

These instincts are not civilized, moral, fair or decent. They’re tuned for survival in a harsher world. Today, the weaker minded tend to behave according to their instincts, but even the strong minded feel their instincts and have a hard time behaving better.

People become neurotic when they don’t recognize the conflict between instinct and our civilized expectations and blame themselves and others for not feeling and behaving according to these civilized ideals.

Imaginary Fred August 1, 2010 at 8:15 am

Totally agree, but I thought I’d point out there’s a much worse version of Nice Guy, the guy who thinks he’s a nice guy because he feels guilt when he acts like a jerk. These are the one’s who have broken my heart, over and over. The guilt doesn’t prevent them from acting like a jerk, but it means they can mentally keep the Nice Guy title, giving them a free pass for another serving of jerk behaviour. This isn’t just my opinion btw, but it comes from a reformed jerk.

Steve October 13, 2010 at 11:59 am

If I had to agree with anyone more its Stoner with a boner. Assertive is the best way to describe a true “Nice-Guy”. I read the Ode about 5 years ago, when I was 16. For the first year or so I used to look up the Ode and read it, thinking it described me perfectly. But like a few people said, its in all reality more like “I was sheltered and don’t know anything but just comforting to feel comforted”. In the past few years, reaching the age of 21 and hitting bars/ taking the time to go out and meet women(not saying the bar is a good place to go, although if you wanna see how some people truly act, go to a bar) I have learned that Women are just as much of “Jerks” as men are. Women do the same thing, they are just looked at differently because they are women and “have deeper emotions and more sensitive” When in all reality, I think I have more guy friends that have been Fucked over than female friends that have been. But thats just me.

I still like to read the Ode every once and a while but I have come to the realization that there really isn’t a “Nice-Guy”. There are people who live life to the fullest and enjoy it, and there are people who would rather care about how notches they have on the belt or if The BMW or the Mercedes is going to make them cooler and fit in society better.

The key is respect people. You don’t get anywhere with anyone unless you respect them. I give respect when I see its due, and therefore I receive it often. Today there are truly becoming more and more people that are more intelligent, loving, healthier and all around “Nice”. You just need to give these people time to show you.

Ok Done Rambling now =D

Cailin December 3, 2010 at 1:29 pm

I never thought I’d say the sentence, “I disagree with Bob, but agree with ‘Stoner with a Boner’.” However, it is true. The “middle ground” that everyone keeps referring to is called self-confidence. For God’s sake, do you think we girls who get dick thrown at us left and right wander around thinking, “Would men like us more if we acted really nice to them and pandered to their every whim, or if instead we acted like total bitches and made them chase us down and try to figure us out”? No. Not even a little bit. We’re not really terribly concerned with what you want us to “act like” because we know you’ll want us anyway. That’s called confidence. And I personally don’t believe that confidence is a simple result of being super-attractive (a common belief to be sure), but that instead approximately 30-40% of one’s ability to present themselves as attractive comes from having that mindset in the first place. Fuck what we are looking for. What are you looking for? A docile little rodent of a woman? A hardcore bitch who keeps your dick in a mason jar under the sink? Nope. You want a girl who’s somewhere in the middle, who’s got her own goals but still respects herself and has enough pride in her own humanity to treat you like a human being while getting what she wants. Incidentally, that’s what we want out of you too – but if you’re being assertive because you think that’s what women want, you’ve missed the point of assertiveness entirely.

Nice Guys, go work on you first. Then heavily screen and evaluate the women in your life for their worthiness to be in your presence. Yep, that’s right…you’ve got to believe you deserve better than to be some woman’s emotional garbage can before a decent girl will appear. Otherwise, you’ll just keep attracting girls who don’t ever intend to have sex with you, and deterring those of us discerning females who can smell your let-me-sneak-my-way-into-your-pants mindset a mile away. C’mon. We all know what you want.

Best lesson a Nice Guy can ever learn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78HU1rsZlvE

Goodness. That was quite a bitchy post. Maybe I’m just a little sick of all the “Nice Guy” bullshit too.

ThePickupArtist December 17, 2010 at 3:18 pm

Well, there’s different ways to “being nice”. I suppose what you mean in this blog is the “wuss”, which is basically a spineless loser. This is not good. Especially when looking for women. I agree, a man SHOULD have goals, determination and boundaries. But he can also be nice. He SHOULD be nice, when appropriate. He should be a gentleman, and he should be strong and firm. It’s no either-or question: The answer is AND!

Agent 1024 January 12, 2011 at 9:40 pm

There are many different angles of being nice, one of which is being an outstanding gentleman in all angles, and the other which is being just plain compliant to others’ whims and fancies. I personally despise the latter, and having read the original “Ode to Nice Guys” rant, I believe that the Nice Guy in question is too indecisive in that he did not actually ask the women he interact with for a date.

After reading all the rants about the Nice Guys, my conclusion is that all of those “Nice Guys” are too indecisive. The only reason why the jerks seem to get laid more often than the Nice Guys is that those jerks are very decisive and know who to date. Those real gentlemen also have the decisiveness, and even more than the jerks. Therefore these real gentlemen will have better chances in getting a date than the jerks. I don’t actually see the problem with that, just that the “Nice Guys” only see things with their closed mind, not noticing the real gentlemen in the world, and instead focusing on the jerks.

I am absolutely sure that people who can strike a balance between being nice and having a real spine do exist, otherwise I would not be typing this (since I would not exist).

Bryan March 20, 2011 at 6:08 pm

I am a “Nice Guy”. I don’t really like it, but I’ve got self esteem issues and such. I could go into a long rant about how I feel like Nice Guys get to that point and why it’s hard to get out, but that’s pointless and I’ll just say in short one of my biggest moments of being a Nice Guy and why I am trying to be better.

(I’ll cut out boring details to make this quick)
Over the past few years there’s only been one chick -really- interested in me. Started talking to her… 3½ years ago? I went to visit her back in 2007 and such and she was a cool nerdy broad with a good head on her shoulders. My type. She also didn’t take BS. Well she had a long time friend that she liked and he obviously liked her, so I didn’t want to be a “jerk” and intrude so I backed off. Blah blah blah etc. She’s now married to a completely different guy and totally happy :D While I’m happy she’s found the perfect dude, I’m totally jealous and kick myself in the hindquarters every so often when I think about it

Carson Wilber September 14, 2011 at 7:34 pm

Being as young as I am I can’t exactly prove a completely valid point. However, I think I can appropriately define myself as a Nice Guy. However, I would like to change your definition of a Nice Guy; we don’t define the ‘others’ as Jerks, nor do we give everything up to the women. We don’t just walk around and agree with everything they say; we have our own say in things, and give a decent argument when approached with a tricky topic. I know this by my own experience.

What I see here is that you define us as low-life spineless idiots who just please them to get attention and approval. This does not define me or my fellow Nice Guys in any way, because what goes on in my head is much different. Some people are Jerks; my friend’s mate was told by his girlfriend’s ‘friends’ that she was going to break up with him. In order to ‘get back at her,’ although she never intended to break up with him, he broke up with her. How does that logic make sense? He is a great guy, but had a moment where he turned into a Jerk.

I recently read the Ode to the Nice Guys, and it was very inspirational and keeps me going. We do what we do not only to make the mistreated and lonely happy, but to bring a better sense and calm the mood of all. I often turn tragic situations into a bit of a joke to make them more lighthearted about it. It often times doesn’t benefit us, so most of this argument is invalid. What do we get? A ‘thanks’ or occasional hug. But no; the Jerks and part-Jerks get the relationships and glory.

I may sound a bit stuck up, but it’s hard for a Nice Guy to prove a point. Every time we do what we do, or try to validate what we do, we are labeled ‘gay’ or ‘stupid,’ just as you have defined us as ‘spineless.’ I am in fact thinking of developing a website to give a little extra motivation to the Nice Guys.

I have emotions. I in fact need help from my female acquaintances to solve my issues. It’s what true friendship is. You just don’t realize it. We lean on each others’ backs in order to make us better people. If you were Nice Guys, you’d understand.

‘I operate and maintain tranquility under the Ode to the Nice Guys, preserving friendship and a better community from both perspectives of male and female.’

Let that be known as the Pledge of the Nice Guys.

Rockhardington September 16, 2011 at 4:07 pm

Good! Ive got an idea… while you’re pandering to these women for approval, I’ll be f*cking them silly to the soundtrack of your unreturned text messages on her phone:)

But maybe you’ll be happy picking up the scraps of desperate single moms in their 40′s later in life, or maybe you dont mind your lady disappearing emotionally for a month while she’s cheating on you with a guy with an edge. It’s ok, keep up the good work Nice Guys, the nicer you are, the more they let loose with us:)

ThatDude September 17, 2011 at 7:12 pm

I read Ode to the Nice Guys and it had it’s points. But also at the same time, the writer, seemed to be upset because he wasn’t meeting chicks or getting laid or whatever. Being a “nice guy” for the sole purpose of getting laid is an oxymoron in itself. If you’re being a good friend, cool. If ya want to explore that friendship further and see if there’s any thing more, go for it. Closed mouths don’t get fed, bud. Like what Stoner with a Boner said. Be more assertive. I’m glad to be a “nice guy” and a badass. So when the time comes and I have to put people like RockHardington(that name even sounds douche-baggy)in check, I can. And also, don’t fuckin’ let meeting women or getting a date be on your mind all the time. Life get’s lonely man and until you can be content with being alone you’ll just end up being codependent. Trust me, I know. Here’s a poem by one of my favorite poets, Tanya Davis.
How to be Alone by Tanya Davis

If you are at first lonely, be patient.

If you’ve not been alone much, or if when you were, you weren’t okay with it, then just wait. You’ll find it’s fine to be alone once you’re embracing it.

We can start with the acceptable places, the bathroom, the coffee shop, the library, where you can stall and read the paper, where you can get your caffeine fix and sit and stay there. Where you can browse the stacks and smell the books; you’re not supposed to talk much anyway so it’s safe there.

There is also the gym, if you’re shy, you can hang out with yourself and mirrors, you can put headphones in.

Then there’s public transportation, because we all gotta go places.

And there’s prayer and mediation, no one will think less if your hanging with your breath seeking peace and salvation.

Start simple. Things you may have previously avoided based on your avoid being alone principles.

The lunch counter, where you will be surrounded by “chow downers”, employees who only have an hour and their spouses work across town, and they, like you, will be alone.

Resist the urge to hang out with your cell phone.

When you are comfortable with “eat lunch and run”, take yourself out for dinner; a restaurant with linen and Silverware. You’re no less an intriguing a person when you are eating solo desert and cleaning the whip cream from the dish with your finger. In fact, some people at full tables will wish they were where you were.

Go to the movies. Where it’s dark and soothing, alone in your seat amidst a fleeting community.

And then take yourself out dancing, to a club where no one knows you, stand on the outside of the floor until the lights convince you more and more and the music shows you. Dance like no one’s watching because they’re probably not. And if they are, assume it is with best human intentions. The way bodies move genuinely to beats, is after-all, gorgeous and affecting. Dance until you’re sweating. And beads of perspiration remind you of life’s best things. Down your back, like a book of blessings.

Go to the woods alone, and the trees and squirrels will watch for you. Go to an unfamiliar city, roam the streets, they are always statues to talk to, and benches made for sitting gives strangers a shared existence if only for a minute, and these moments can be so uplifting and the conversation you get in by sitting alone on benches, might of never happened had you not been there by yourself.

Society is afraid of alone though. Like lonely hearts are wasting away in basements. Like people must have problems if after awhile nobody is dating them.

But lonely is a freedom that breathes easy and weightless, and lonely is healing if you make it.

You can stand swathed by groups and mobs or hands with your partner, look both further and farther in the endless quest for company.

But no one is in your head. And by the time you translate your thoughts an essence of them maybe lost or perhaps it is just kept. Perhaps in the interest of loving oneself, perhaps all those “sappy slogans” from pre-school over to high school groaning, we’re tokens for holding the lonely at bay.

Cause if you’re happy in your head, then solitude is blessed, and alone is okay.

It’s okay if no one believes like you, all experiences unique, no one has the same synapses, can’t think like you, for this be relived, keeps things interesting, life’s magic things in reach, and it doesn’t mean you aren’t connected, and the community is not present, just take the perspective you get from being one person in one head and feel the effects of it.

Take silence and respect it.

If you have an art that needs a practice, stop neglecting it, if your family doesn’t get you or a religious sect is not meant for you, don’t obsess about it.

You could be in an instant surrounded if you need it.

If your heart is bleeding, make the best of it.

There is heat in freezing, be a testament. – TD

Lots of Love to all you. Even the prick that left the fucked off message right before me(it’s sad really) Take care. Be blessed.

Agent 1024 September 21, 2011 at 9:31 am

Before reading this, I would like you to know that I am a straight guy who may be classified as a Nice Guy. Also, I don’t believe in dating to get laid; I believe in dating for a lifetime relationship. Note that I use the term Nice Guy (with capital letters) for the people intended for in the ode.

After careful reading of the ode, I notice one recurring problem with the ‘Nice Guys’: indecisiveness. There were times when the Nice Guy could just get the girl he wanted… if only he asked. In fact, the things I would do could be summarised into a few steps: Evaluate if the girl is what you want, think ahead and imagine living the rest of your life with her (in my country, being long-sighted is a requirement), and if all is good, ask her out. After all, what’s the worst that could happen? There are few things more valuable than a long-lasting relationship. Personally I would sacrifice friendship with a girl to date her if it means that I would possibly have a happy marriage with her, but to each his own. Maybe you guys value friendship greatly, though I would say that it is a worthy sacrifice for a long-lasting romantic relationship, no matter the awkwardness that arises from a crash-and-burn-and-explode breakup

Somewhere within paragraph 3, “This was for that time she interrupted the best killing spree you’d ever orchestrated in GTA 3 to rant…”, something tells me that assuming the Nice Guy really likes the girl, the rumour could be better resolved by dating the girl. May not be the best option, but still I would rather date someone I like to help dispel a rumour than to concoct a counter-rumour which could go out of control (Personal experience: counter-rumours work worse than people think).

In the end part of paragraph 3, starting from the sentence “This was also for that time she didn’t have a date…”, I see one huge problem with the Nice Guy. The fact that she didn’t have a date means that she is available, and the fact that she was willing to “flirt shamelessly with you” means that she (secretly?) wants you to date her, and she was trying to drop a (really subtle) sledgehammer-to-the-back-of-the-head-clear hint. In fact, I believe the entire 3rd paragraph is a testament to the Nice Guy’s indecisiveness.

Then in paragraph 4, “Many of them claim they just want to date a nice guy…”, there is no evidence that shows that they don’t want to date a nice guy, just that they will not initiate the offer. The nice guy will have to do it himself, which still makes a lot of sense, as it had been since humans existed. The interpretation of “why the connection breaks down” is incorrect. As far as I can see, they do want a nice guy, but it is only the jerks that actually go out and ask them for a date.

The final paragraph says “For all the crazy, inane, absurd things you tolerate…” The fact that the Nice Guy was willing to tolerate all that means that he is apparently willing to live his life with that particular girl. His unwillingness to actually take the friendship further confounds me.

Here is an analogy that I made up myself: A girl’s heart will shatter if she is rejected by her love interest, but a guy’s heart will only chip. Obviously it would be better for the guy to make the move to ask the girl out instead of the girl asking the guy out. Feminists, you are free to tear this analogy apart with proper explanation and an improved analogy.

I value friendships, but if given the choice for a long-lasting romantic relationship, I will willingly sacrifice that friendship. Life is too short for regrets, and there is no regret worse than seeing the person you could have dated and married go with someone else.

I live my life through this mantra: “What’s the worst that could possibly happen?” Though this mantra will not always give me the smooth ride anyone will want (also gets me into trouble), but I always pride myself in taking paths less travelled. I know of people who ask the same question in their life and achieve success, at least in their own right.

If there is any consolation, the counter-argument “Ode to the Nice Girls” (both versions) had equally large fallacies.

Also, before you take everything seriously, I must warn you: I am autistic (high-functioning sort, checked with mental institute).

Bob September 21, 2011 at 10:27 am

I posted March 16th under the same name… funny how things have changed now. Since then I’ve had a couple “serious relationships” and dealt with a lot of girls and b*tches. I’m definitely not same guy that wrote that back there… honestly I wanted to punch myself when I read my own post.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself and do something about it. If you want to just get laid… it’s not that hard. Trust me. If you want to have a mature relationship… then do that. People these days add all these extra emotions and make it more complicated then it really is.

For me personally at the age of 22 I am sick and tired of hearing girls moan and groan about getting treated like crap. I just don’t have time for their drama anymore. Now my close friends that are girls… I’ll listen to them and help them but feeling sorry for every girl that has a sob story… forget it.

Now I focus on school, soccer, and getting my own. Girls wants sex just as much as guys. Some say guys use girls? I say girls use guys so just use each other. No I’m not advocating casual sex… just simply if you want to date to find the one and get married… good for you I’m not there yet. So for the moment I’ll define the next dating relationship as someone I can have fun with and enjoy experiencing various things together.

But seriously… nice guys… get a hold of yourself. I did

Trish October 2, 2011 at 9:35 pm

What I can’t get past and what I’d like an answer to is why these “nice guys” hang around these kind of women in the first place? Because not all women are like that. I’d venture to say the majority of us are not. I get the impression, just based on a lifetime of experience, there are some men who play the “nice guy” around chicks with big boobs, a great bikini body and a teeny tiny personality all so they can have a chance at her. And then they act like they’re the victim because they’re being so nice to a girl who is inconsiderate and vapid. I don’t feel sorry for those guys. If they won’t look past a pretty face and a hot body to a girl out there who’s actually worth their time, then they deserve what they get being the “nice guy.”

rei October 4, 2011 at 3:36 am

“We often see this argument that most women want Jerks and not Nice Guys, hence, the age old debate of Nice Guys vs. Jerks. This is misleading and often perpetuated by the Nice Guys themselves. ”

That would be because a lot of scientists are Nice Guys, and science agrees that women want jerks. In everything from bacteria to humans, it’s been shown that the aggressive individuals reproduce the most, while on a population level there’s always a steady proportion of altruists that help the group thrive, even at cost of their own lives or reproduction prospects.

The world works in sick, sick ways. Don’t go thinking that everything is as it ought to be.

whoknew? October 18, 2011 at 12:21 am

I think everyone is to blind to see you don’t have to agree or disagree with this post. The “ode” isn’t saying that these people are spineless wussies. Its saying that a man can actually give a shit about there female friends without putting pressure on them. Im definantly a nice guy and proud of it. I get laid when I want to and know what I want, yet I can relate to almost everything in the ode. Does that make me an asshole? Or does if t make me a nice guy? Not every nice guy is some bumbling weakminded fool like matt makes out to be. And why would u call out a weak minded wussy if in ur mind he obviously poses no threat? Seems like someone might have there own issues to contend with.

Rockhardington October 18, 2011 at 11:48 pm

@ThatDude: I’m not sure that you understand the definition of “nice guy” as it’s used here. “Nice guys” are manipulative underneath their facade and therefore cannot be trusted. Their actions and tone are repulsive to the opposite sex. It is a pathological state and different than being genuinely nice. In fact, being nice is a good quality for a man to have. Douche-Baggy? You would probably be questioning yourself if you were next to me, son :) I’d probably pick you apart pretty quick, or at least the things you thought were cool about yourself. I wont take offense to your quips because Im guessing you are young.

@Trish: Because they arent nice, they are rageful and indignant. They are passive-aggressive and fundamentally make poor mates.

@rei: Science has a lot to offer to this subject. Better to move with the laws of nature than go against it. It doesnt mean to be a jerk, but learn to hold your own. Everything is as it ought to be… and is. Work with it.

Cat December 22, 2011 at 10:54 pm

I’ve never understood the “nice guys finish last” thing. Just about every guy I’ve ever dated has been really nice. Nice – not wimpy or whiny. And most of my female friends also tend to date nice guys.

While I’d say it’s true that nice guys tend to start dating and getting attention a little later than the jerks, it’s not by much – late high school, or college.

I guess what I was missing is that the “nice guys” who complain about this aren’t actually all that nice. I wouldn’t want to date a guy who resented women for not dating him, or spends all his time spewing vitriol at other guys. Yuck.

Shawndre' February 3, 2012 at 4:26 pm

This is by far one of the stupidest blogs of opinions I’ve ever set my eyes upon. It’s foolish to even breakdown further the difference between types of guys. Everyone knows your either a nice guy or bad guy, good girl or bad girl. You’re either or. It’s apple and oranges. Your either a dickhead who deceives and connives his way to get in women pant’s or you’re the guy who gets irritated at all the complaining that girls do when they end up with those types of guys so you feel the need to interject your feelings as well. Just because you share an opinion about the types of guys girls date or that they should be dating you doesn’t make you anything less of a good guy. It just means you understand way more that the average people really do about relationships, would like a chance and hate to females getting hurt over the same stuff.

Damola Mabogunje February 18, 2012 at 1:15 am

Hello Mark,
I stumbled upon this article while in the middle of crafting my own response to the “Ode to the Nice Guys” article by Fu-zu Jen and it made me rethink what I had to say. So please stop by my blog when you have a moment, and let me know what you think of it. :)
http://theredstringblog.com/editions/16/the-nice-guy-in-the-middle

Damola Mabogunje February 18, 2012 at 2:00 am

Oops, just noticed I typed Mark. I meant Matt

Marius May 25, 2012 at 2:45 am

This is just sad. It’s become a common theme from those who have to face the fact that they fit into the “girl who dates jerks” or “shallow girl” category to redefine what a Nice Guy is in order to deflect their own faults and personal problems.

It’s the ‘Ode To The Nice Guy’. Not the ‘Ode To The Guy Pretending To Be Nice’. Not the ‘Ode To The Guy Who Is Secretly An Assholecreepywannabeloser’.

It’s the Ode to the Nice Guy. It’s not BY Nice Guys. That’s the entire point. It’s by people who have been there, it’s by people who have seen others go through situations like that only to be rejected time and again and still be there, it’s by those rare cases of women who understood what they did.

That’s the entire point. Those “assholes” who so many here are raging about, they WERE Nice Guys. Some were fake, many were not, who became bitter because of what they went through. A learning experience? Sure. But they are not Nice Guys. The entire point to the Nice Guy ode is for those quiet, loving Nice Guys who are everything the ode says they are. They are genuine, they are beautiful people and they cared about you only to be thrown time and time again to the wolves until they gave up or spent the rest of their lives quietly being there for you until eventually you do (or don’t) meet the man of your dreams. And guess what? Those quiet ones supported you because they wanted you to be happy.

Complaining about whiny, bitching, self-entitled assholes and claiming they are (somehow) the “Nice Guys” is one of the most pathetic things you could possibly do to defend yourself from any resemblance of having to face up to reality.

Strangely enough we NEVER get this shit with the similar Ode To The Nice Girl. Guys don’t go around saying how creepy Nice Girls are, how ugly or self-entitled they are or whining. Yet it’s the exact same thing. Those “Nice Guys” you keep meeting that bitch at you? They are NOT Nice Guys. And if they were? It doesn’t stop them from PREVIOUSLY being Nice Guys before they became bitter.

You can’t handle the fact that Nice Guys put up with shit that makes you look bad to yourself? Perhaps take a hint and stop being pathetic excuses for human beings, hmm.

Nice guy June 12, 2012 at 1:08 pm

While I do agree that everybody is nice to varying degrees I do not at all think that the “nice guys” do not have enough self esteem or personal identity. Having been a nice guy myself I do identify a lot with that stereotype.

Do I have a sense of self esteem? Oh yes. But i dont have to treat women like shit to express it. I have been a smart kid in school, excelled in maths and computers and yet I am not the typical nerd who has strange habits or wears thick glasses. As for personal identity, I did my MBA from one of the best Bschools in the world and my articles (on education, business and technology) have been published at quite a few well known sites and I got paid for it. It takes a good deal of self esteem to head the computer society, the robotics club and the undergrad student magazine simultaneously or to deliver a business pitch (and win mind you) in front of CEOs and VPs whom you have only seen in photos.

Do I need a woman to validate myself? No I don’t. I just have to look at my CV

Just as not every guy who gets a girl is a “jerk”, similarly not every nice guy is a spineless idiot with low self esteem.

Yes I have seen good guys getting girls but I have seen many more girls pining for jerks who treat them like shit. The problem with nice guys is that we wear our heart on our sleeves and go to any extent to see a smile on the face of that one person we like. We don’t play games and we would never do anything to make her sad. We are those guys who stand by the girl when she really needs someone until she again rushes off to the jerk.

But funnily, when it comes to getting married these same women choose us. Why? Because we make good money and can buy them all the things they want.

Arthur October 23, 2013 at 7:24 pm

I think we all have personality traits of both “nice guys” and jerks/bullies.

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